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Post by debatesmith on Oct 17, 2016 6:37:02 GMT
Hi guys recently the server has been going through some hard times. Toxicity has reached a new high, trust between the mods and the players is at an all time low. We understand that there is a lack of trust surrounding the mod team, and it is causing a strain on the server. We are humans and players just like you and we acknowledge that we have made mistakes recently. Therefore we would like to use this thread as a place that players can openly communicate with the mod team and share any ideas and suggestions they may have. We want this to be a place for constructive criticism and discussion in order to make our server as great as we know it can be. -Mod Team, Safe Survival P.S. If you would like to talk to a single mod specifically we ask that you “tag” them with your suggestion so that they will receive a notification. Use “@playername” to tag a specific mod. EDIT: Added by SchaumG550: docs.google.com/forms/d/12addhLNys2hwfea-h_E-RJNYf0-f4p_-FarQDdYnmwg/editPlayers feedback survey ^^^
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2016 13:01:09 GMT
So I'd like to comment and praise SunSeek on one of their posts ( safemc.proboards.com/post/28378/thread ). The main point I'd like to bring up is the 'rules for the mods conduct'. This should be done. There should be set protocols to be followed for each rule. For instance, Rule #4 if its xraying or hacking, solid evidence such as a screenshot or recording for hacking, or for xray having 2-3 mods confirm it before the ban goes through. Most of the time this is done and its fine, just making sure this is done for all bans would be a good idea and prevent mistakes from being made. The main issue at the moment of course is Rule #2, respecting players and staff. It's a very vague area on how to moderate this, because some staff members will take alot of abuse/hate towards them before doing anything, others wont take much at all. I don't think the warning system works, they are more of a joke than anything else. In my opinion mutes are the best way to deal with outspoken, annoying, disrespectful players. It shuts them down completly for whatever the length of time the mute is and if they choose to continue after, then a longer mute or perhaps a ban can be put in place. I know this from experience being on both ends - as a staff member and as a pretty disrespectful player for a while. If done right, the only argument the player can put forth is the 'power abuse' one. For which I will reference my own post on this topic here: I don't get where all this talk 'Mod abuse' has come from. If staff are confident in there decisions and have 2 or more other staff members agree with the decision made, then it shouldn't bother them if it is called power abuse or whatever. The problem comes when 1 staff member by themselves makes a decision and it is the wrong one or its handled badly, in that case that staff member should hold their hands up and admit they were wrong. If both of these are done, any report against a staff member can be shut down quite quickly with 3 staff members agreeing with the decision made or them owning up it to it being wrong. Having other staff members opinions on what you do is critical. This stops and shuts down any bias or mistakes and they will have no where else to go with the argument. I do believe these things are done well most of the time, it just needs to be a defined protocol to make sure it happens all of the time. At the end of the day, alot of you do your job very well, its more of a team managment issue. I dont really know if its Vex's area as an admin to manage this, perhaps a Head Moderator who's duty is to soley to manage the team, sort these kinds of issues, write the unwritten staff rules and manage promotions perhaps even demotions. This could just be an internal staffing thing, it doesn't even have to be a public Head Moderator. Or maybe this is one of Vex's jobs, Im not too sure, with the recent google form it's very possible. I really like these things, players are now being listened to, and I hope Schaum is listening to his staff. Maybe this surge of toxicity wasn't all that bad and some good things come of it. Edit: And the reason the warn system doesnt work is that 4 warns is quite hard to get to if your not trying to get them, you even get warned with a kick when you are on your last one. Also even if a disrespectful player was to get to 4 warns, its a one day ban, which to an unaddicted player is nothing. Most of the people acting up won't care about this.
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Post by debatesmith on Oct 17, 2016 13:46:46 GMT
So I'd like to comment and praise SunSeek on one of their posts ( safemc.proboards.com/post/28378/thread ). The main point I'd like to bring up is the 'rules for the mods conduct'. This should be done. There should be set protocols to be followed for each rule. For instance, Rule #4 if its xraying or hacking, solid evidence such as a screenshot or recording for hacking, or for xray having 2-3 mods confirm it before the ban goes through. Most of the time this is done and its fine, just making sure this is done for all bans would be a good idea and prevent mistakes from being made. The main issue at the moment of course is Rule #2, respecting players and staff. It's a very vague area on how to moderate this, because some staff members will take alot of abuse/hate towards them before doing anything, others wont take much at all. I don't think the warning system works, they are more of a joke than anything else. In my opinion mutes are the best way to deal with outspoken, annoying, disrespectful players. It shuts them down completly for whatever the length of time the mute is and if they choose to continue after, then a longer mute or perhaps a ban can be put in place. I know this from experience being on both ends - as a staff member and as a pretty disrespectful player for a while. If done right, the only argument the player can put forth is the 'power abuse' one. For which I will reference my own post on this topic here: I don't get where all this talk 'Mod abuse' has come from. If staff are confident in there decisions and have 2 or more other staff members agree with the decision made, then it shouldn't bother them if it is called power abuse or whatever. The problem comes when 1 staff member by themselves makes a decision and it is the wrong one or its handled badly, in that case that staff member should hold their hands up and admit they were wrong. If both of these are done, any report against a staff member can be shut down quite quickly with 3 staff members agreeing with the decision made or them owning up it to it being wrong. Having other staff members opinions on what you do is critical. This stops and shuts down any bias or mistakes and they will have no where else to go with the argument. I do believe these things are done well most of the time, it just needs to be a defined protocol to make sure it happens all of the time. At the end of the day, alot of you do your job very well, its more of a team managment issue. I dont really know if its Vex's area as an admin to manage this, perhaps a Head Moderator who's duty is to soley to manage the team, sort these kinds of issues, write the unwritten staff rules and manage promotions perhaps even demotions. This could just be an internal staffing thing, it doesn't even have to be a public Head Moderator. Or maybe this is one of Vex's jobs, Im not too sure, with the recent google form it's very possible. I really like these things, players are now being listened to, and I hope Schaum is listening to his staff. Maybe this surge of toxicity wasn't all that bad and some good things come of it. Edit: And the reason the warn system doesnt work is that 4 warns is quite hard to get to if your not trying to get them, you even get warned with a kick when you are on your last one. Also even if a disrespectful player was to get to 4 warns, its a one day ban, which to an unaddicted player is nothing. Most of the people acting up won't care about this. I will try to reply on each of these points, however my forum skills are so bare, so forgive me for not individually quoting each section. 1. Mod rules of conduct: I think we achieve this when it comes to xraying/hacking and obvious issues like that. Normally we have at least 2, sometimes more, mods look at evidence before coming to a conclusion. I think the main point where we struggle is your second point. 2. Respecting all players and staff. I truly feel like this is where we are having the most trouble, and where the most toxicity comes from. Because you're right, everyone becomes offended by different things, and can accept a differing level of abuse. We tried to address this with the updated rules post a couple days ago, but that has been unfavorably received by players and a few mods alike. This is the number one issue that we discuss among ourselves and we are still working on a solution/better system than the warning system. We will try to be more open about where we are headed with this, and when we have a solution that we think will work, I suggest that we propose it to some of our most dedicated players to gauge their reactions. 3. Power Abuse. Obviously in a perfect world we would never have this issue come up, because we would never make a mistake. But we are humans and regular players as well and mistakes do happen. On those occasions where a report is filed against one or more of us, they should be addressed swiftly and appropriately. I do believe that a majority of "Power Abuse reports", can be dismissed with the support of other staff members, once we have a solution for problem #2. However in the situations where we do over-react, or under-react, I also think we need to improve on admitting our mistakes and owning up to them. This is something we have talked about recently, and will strive to improve on in the future. 4. A Head Moderator, or as I will refer to it now, HR Staff. I personally love this idea, but I feel that it goes against how we want the team to function. We try to not create a hierarchy inside the mod team, as we all work off of each other, and look to each other for support. Creating positions where 1 persons opinion on how the team is operating, is more valuable than other members opinions, would be counter productive and create un-needed strife between the team. IMO. Also as a side note, I love this first post 3nts. It is the exact type of constructive criticism we were hoping for, and I strongly urge other players to contribute to this discussion.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2016 14:16:37 GMT
4. A Head Moderator, or as I will refer to it now, HR Staff. I personally love this idea, but I feel that it goes against how we want the team to function. We try to not create a hierarchy inside the mod team, as we all work off of each other, and look to each other for support. Creating positions where 1 persons opinion on how the team is operating, is more valuable than other members opinions, would be counter productive and create un-needed strife between the team. IMO. Yeah you are correct, Head moderator perhaps wasn't the correct term but the point I was trying to get across does, having someone or a small team there who's main goal is to do this type of thing, like you said HR Staff. They would just be there to make sure things are being done correctly, reports being answered and dealt with, making forms like Vex had going yesterday, taking feedback in from the player base and attempting to implement it. It wouldn't have to go against hierarchy then, just a different main job within the team. They'd still moderate and moderators would still have their say in the HR matters. And yes I 100% agree with the rest of your post, I will do some more thinking on the other topics and if I think of anything more I will get back to you ^-^ I look forward to others opinions and I do hope theres some good ones.
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Post by <3NobleTreason<3 on Oct 17, 2016 14:36:26 GMT
Since I have joined the server, I have read thousands upon thousands of posts and complaints on how to alleviate issues withon the server such as the player to mod interaction. Of course not all of them have substance or quality, but those that do are lumped in with those that don't.
Not to qualify this particular forum, but we have been trying to communicate with the staff for a long time now, and it has always been futile. What is one forum to do that the other thousands have tried to and failed.
If you truly feel like you need our input, just go back and read the forums.
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Post by debatesmith on Oct 17, 2016 14:48:02 GMT
Not to qualify this particular forum, but we have been trying to communicate with the staff for a long time now, and it has always been futile. What is one forum to do that the other thousands have tried to and failed. If you truly feel like you need our input, just go back and read the forums. This particular forum/thread is a way for everyone to communicate together in one centralized area and discuss solutions/suggestions on how to deal with our ever growing problems. Toxicity in the server has been building for awhile now, and this thread we hope will prove to be an open dialogue with staff. You're right, we haven't been the best at communicating with the player base, but let's use this particular thread to openly discuss how we can fix our problems together.
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Post by lisardcrew on Oct 17, 2016 15:23:38 GMT
First, I want to say I'm happy this post was made. I'm writing this as I think so I'm honestly not sure if this will help any but here goes. 1) I believe SunSeek was correct when it was mentioned about "unwritten rules". There are unwritten rules governing everything we're involved in. I disagree, personally, with the no mining for diamonds rule I always saw it as a "don't mine erratically for diamonds" rule. I do agree that I think before there were several players that viewed mods as "gods" or the top of the top on the server. I never saw it as something the mods intentionally did, but being the ones who had final say about punishments, helping players, and having many young players on the server, it was kind of inevitable. 2) based on #1, now we've been very destabilized by having so many mod changes in a short amount of time. We've had like 10 mods removed (for whatever reasons) and had mods quit then come back. I think this is affecting players (it affects me) because everytime a change is made there's an adjustment period and I think that has just stacked up, so now it almost feels like being in a new server. 3) The whole respect issue... that's a HUGE issue. I have the suggestion that maybe if a player/mod says stop or no once, after that action should be taken. Not a string of warnings though, I agree with 3nts. Warning after warning isn't going to help it's just going to allow players to see how much they can get away with. Mods should only have to say "stop" ONCE in chat for players to stop. After that, I truly think there should be kicks, mutes, whatever. Multiple mods warning multiple times just seems fractured and weak. Whether that be players talking politics, memes, whatever they are talking about, if a mod says stop, they need to know to stop. PERIOD. On the flip side, Mods can't say stop teasingly... as mods. Maybe the actual stop now warning would use the red color? I know mods are players, have friends and tease amongst each other, but speaking as a player I sometimes feel confused... is this a REAL "STOP NOW" or is it a teasing "lol, stop". We're not seeing body language, only text on a screen. I feel that needs to be clearer. Players need to be clear that if you say something and another player says "stop" you need to stop. Players also need to bring issues with other players (or mods) to mods attention more often. Not letting things fester till they're at their wits end. 4) I think, sometimes, mods approach situations thinking all (or most) players have and always use common sense. This isn't true for adults... how can this be true for teens (or younger?) So things sometimes need to be explained clearer. I think Aka's tutorial of how to claim is a perfect example... and I wish that would be incorporated at spawn with a BIG SIGN. Because people don't read, they should, but they don't. Along with that, even though new players spawn with a book, would there be a way that we could have a short rules board somewhere noticeable at spawn? Very, very brief, but there. There are too many players that just don't read the book, and I just think it'd be easier (hopefully less infractions) if there were a few added precautions? 5) The head mod thing is something to think about... but not now. Doing it now would add to confusion I think. I'll prob add or edit this, but I'm at work and gtg.
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Post by <3NobleTreason<3 on Oct 17, 2016 15:30:05 GMT
Not to qualify this particular forum, but we have been trying to communicate with the staff for a long time now, and it has always been futile. What is one forum to do that the other thousands have tried to and failed. If you truly feel like you need our input, just go back and read the forums. This particular forum/thread is a way for everyone to communicate together in one centralized area and discuss solutions/suggestions on how to deal with our ever growing problems. Toxicity in the server has been building for awhile now, and this thread we hope will prove to be an open dialogue with staff. You're right, we haven't been the best at communicating with the player base, but let's use this particular thread to openly discuss how we can fix our problems together. No offense... but you just drew a line in the sand basically saying that all things up untill this point have been ignored..
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Post by work on Oct 17, 2016 15:36:00 GMT
This particular forum/thread is a way for everyone to communicate together in one centralized area and discuss solutions/suggestions on how to deal with our ever growing problems. Toxicity in the server has been building for awhile now, and this thread we hope will prove to be an open dialogue with staff. You're right, we haven't been the best at communicating with the player base, but let's use this particular thread to openly discuss how we can fix our problems together. No offense... but you just drew a line in the sand basically saying that all things up untill this point have been ignored.. He's basically saying that this thread is where everything can be officially discussed, instead of being tossed back and forth in-game and on the forum.
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Post by debatesmith on Oct 17, 2016 15:39:04 GMT
This particular forum/thread is a way for everyone to communicate together in one centralized area and discuss solutions/suggestions on how to deal with our ever growing problems. Toxicity in the server has been building for awhile now, and this thread we hope will prove to be an open dialogue with staff. You're right, we haven't been the best at communicating with the player base, but let's use this particular thread to openly discuss how we can fix our problems together. No offense... but you just drew a line in the sand basically saying that all things up untill this point have been ignored.. Noble i'm sorry you feel that way. That was not my intended interpretation. I'm acknowledging myself's and the rest of the staff's past failures, while trying to create an area of open discussion and constructive criticism. I hope that we continue to work on solutions for the problems we have now, instead of focus on our past failures. lisardcrew I will read and reply to your full post in a little bit, thank you for contributing to the discussion
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Post by work on Oct 17, 2016 15:50:37 GMT
No offense... but you just drew a line in the sand basically saying that all things up untill this point have been ignored.. Noble i'm sorry you feel that way. That was not my intended interpretation. I'm acknowledging myself's and the rest of the staff's past failures, while trying to create an area of open discussion and constructive criticism. I hope that we continue to work on solutions for the problems we have now, instead of focus on our past failures. lisardcrew I will read and reply to your full post in a little bit, thank you for contributing to the discussion I thoroughly appreciate it that you are acknowledging the issues with staff, and apologizing on their behalf. I feel like this needed to be done, and the fact that you are contributing in this way gives me a glimmer of hope for this server. I just hope some other moderators will take this as an opportunity to admit their flaws, as was said before, we are all human and we make mistakes. I'll admit that I am immature in some circumstances, my friends and I do say or do things that we know probably will not end in our favor. I'll apologize for all of it and admit where I'm wrong. I can only hope that some of the staff will take it as seriously as you are debate.
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Post by SchizoJoker on Oct 17, 2016 15:57:59 GMT
Ty debate for listening to our concerns.
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Post by lisardcrew on Oct 17, 2016 16:03:08 GMT
Since I have joined the server, I have read thousands upon thousands of posts and complaints on how to alleviate issues withon the server such as the player to mod interaction. Of course not all of them have substance or quality, but those that do are lumped in with those that don't. Not to qualify this particular forum, but we have been trying to communicate with the staff for a long time now, and it has always been futile. What is one forum to do that the other thousands have tried to and failed. If you truly feel like you need our input, just go back and read the forums. While I understand what you're saying, I like that this thread was created, rather than staff just going back and "culling" past threads. Why? First, a mod is posting this. That alone is like an olive branch saying "we see there are major issues and want to calmly discuss them". Second it gives players who may have been very emotional when they wrote a complaint time to come up with a more validly written issue/solution. Third instead possibly picking an older complaint they are asking for our input on our current complaints which minimize confusion on what the current issues are. Fourth instead of doing this by themselves, they are inviting us into the process.
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Post by debatesmith on Oct 17, 2016 16:28:38 GMT
First, I want to say I'm happy this post was made. I'm writing this as I think so I'm honestly not sure if this will help any but here goes. 1) I believe SunSeek was correct when it was mentioned about "unwritten rules". There are unwritten rules governing everything we're involved in. I disagree, personally, with the no mining for diamonds rule I always saw it as a "don't mine erratically for diamonds" rule. I do agree that I think before there were several players that viewed mods as "gods" or the top of the top on the server. I never saw it as something the mods intentionally did, but being the ones who had final say about punishments, helping players, and having many young players on the server, it was kind of inevitable. 2) based on #1, now we've been very destabilized by having so many mod changes in a short amount of time. We've had like 10 mods removed (for whatever reasons) and had mods quit then come back. I think this is affecting players (it affects me) because everytime a change is made there's an adjustment period and I think that has just stacked up, so now it almost feels like being in a new server. 3) The whole respect issue... that's a HUGE issue. I have the suggestion that maybe if a player/mod says stop or no once, after that action should be taken. Not a string of warnings though, I agree with 3nts. Warning after warning isn't going to help it's just going to allow players to see how much they can get away with. Mods should only have to say "stop" ONCE in chat for players to stop. After that, I truly think there should be kicks, mutes, whatever. Multiple mods warning multiple times just seems fractured and weak. Whether that be players talking politics, memes, whatever they are talking about, if a mod says stop, they need to know to stop. PERIOD. On the flip side, Mods can't say stop teasingly... as mods. Maybe the actual stop now warning would use the red color? I know mods are players, have friends and tease amongst each other, but speaking as a player I sometimes feel confused... is this a REAL "STOP NOW" or is it a teasing "lol, stop". We're not seeing body language, only text on a screen. I feel that needs to be clearer. Players need to be clear that if you say something and another player says "stop" you need to stop. Players also need to bring issues with other players (or mods) to mods attention more often. Not letting things fester till they're at their wits end. 4) I think, sometimes, mods approach situations thinking all (or most) players have and always use common sense. This isn't true for adults... how can this be true for teens (or younger?) So things sometimes need to be explained clearer. I think Aka's tutorial of how to claim is a perfect example... and I wish that would be incorporated at spawn with a BIG SIGN. Because people don't read, they should, but they don't. Along with that, even though new players spawn with a book, would there be a way that we could have a short rules board somewhere noticeable at spawn? Very, very brief, but there. There are too many players that just don't read the book, and I just think it'd be easier (hopefully less infractions) if there were a few added precautions? 5) The head mod thing is something to think about... but not now. Doing it now would add to confusion I think. I'll prob add or edit this, but I'm at work and gtg. Hey lisard Once again, my forums skills are lacking, so I apologize for not quoting this point by point. 1. I would like to stress that there is no rule preventing you from mining diamonds. It is obviously the main currency on our server and you should feel no hesitation while mining and you happen across diamonds. The problem becomes with people xraying for diamonds. Most if not all players who xray have a unique pattern that shows us exactly what they have been doing. They don't mine like a normal strip mine or anything of the sort, but instead just move from pocket to pocket of dias in a straight line. If you are playing legitimately you should feel no hesitation whatsoever while mining. Now as for the "mods being gods" point, I think that is in part a problem of the current mistrust between the players and the mod team. We are here to help the server and make sure it moves in a positive direction. Once we have solved the current problems we are having, and that mistrust goes away, I feel like mods being seen as "gods" view will also be solved retroactively. 2. Mod team turnaround has been extremely chaotic these past few months, mostly for a few reasons. We have had a number of mods quit due to IRL responsibilities or just not enjoying minecraft anymore. That left a hole in our staff that needed to be filled, and it was a logical step that promoting former mods who had come back to the server would fill that hole, while also giving us time to train new people (myself included). However now that we feel like we have a solid team, we are discussing internally on how to better identify mod candidates, train assistant mods once they are promoted, and create a sort of standard for being accepted as a full mod, once you have proven yourself capable as an assistant mod. We have also recently begun discussing ideas as to how to get the community involved in selecting or identifying mod candidates. A recent suggestion was that we let the players tell us who they think would be a good assistant mod via a poll, and then see how they do once we begin training them. Hopefully we will have a more transparent and communicative way of involving the server in mod selection soon. 3. I actually love your idea for a selected color of font, detailing the seriousness of our warnings. The dark red font is supposed to be reserved for mods exclusively, and I will absolutely make sure this point gets pushed. As for the warning system, again, it is just not working. A 1 day ban, even after 4 warnings is just too light of a punishment, and we are trying to figure out where to go from here. I will highlight what I said in my reply to 3nts. I think that once we have a solution for a better "warning/punishment" system, we should propose it to some of our more dedicated players and gauge their responses. It's the #1 issue for the server right now, and we are discussing ways to solve this. 4. We try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt when it comes to common sense. We are very limited with the type of resources we can give new players since we are a semi-vanilla server. We do have, just beyond spawn a building owned by Ember, that has a detailed wall explaining the server rules and claim systems. Maybe if we tried to establish a way so that players were more aware of that area, and were to head there before starting out into the server. I will also push for this to be looked at, as I think it solves a lot of common questions new players have. 5. Again on the Head Mod, you're right, right now is obviously not the time for this decision, as we have more important issues to tackle. We try not to create a hierarchy in the mod team and this would have to be approached very carefully. After thinking about it, I think that if it were to be implemented, it probably wouldn't be a public thing, that way that mod would not be viewed as higher up than others. I love that you are contributing and even replying to other players posts, as this thread should not be just about myself but more of a collective discussion about how to solve our problems. I have not slept in about 27 hours, and this will probably be my last post for a few hours. Thanks everybody, please keep discussing.
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Post by aidencrazy1 on Oct 17, 2016 16:30:48 GMT
Instead of making this you could reply to other reports or discussions and talk to them you didnt have to make a brand new discussion.
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